Secrecy agreements ?

[Robin Harritt]

Secrecy agreements

Have those of you who have been given access to adoption records been asked to
sign a secrecy agreement either for initial or further access?

I am being asked to sign such an agreement by Barnardo's for information about
aspects of my care from over 50 years ago. The other people involved have been
deceased for 36 years and 16 years.

I am inclined to think the main reason for this sudden secrecy requirement from
Barnardos London is more concerned with individual and corporate backside
covering than with duty of care or the confidentiality of any living person. It
would certainly be a first for Barnardos London in my experience if the latter
were their main concern, it has certainly not been in the past in my experience.

Robin Harritt

http://harritt.net

[doug thomas]

Post by Robin Harritt
Secrecy agreements
Have those of you who have been given access to adoption records been
asked to sign a secrecy agreement either for initial or further access?
I am being asked to sign such an agreement by Barnardo's for information
about aspects of my care from over 50 years ago. The other people involved
have been deceased for 36 years and 16 years.
I am inclined to think the main reason for this sudden secrecy requirement
from Barnardos London is more concerned with individual and corporate
backside covering than with duty of care or the confidentiality of any
living person. It would certainly be a first for Barnardos London in my
experience if the latter were their main concern, it has certainly not
been in the past in my experience.
Robin Harritt
http://harritt.net

It must be all of those solicitors tryng to sue everyone in sight, and take
over the right and proper role of barristers in the Court room. - too much
litigation by the short gown set. - or is that just something that I saw on
Rumpole?

Doug Thomas

[Robin Harritt]

Post by doug thomas

Post by Robin Harritt
Secrecy agreements
Have those of you who have been given access to adoption records been
asked to sign a secrecy agreement either for initial or further access?
I am being asked to sign such an agreement by Barnardo's for information
about aspects of my care from over 50 years ago. The other people involved
have been deceased for 36 years and 16 years.
I am inclined to think the main reason for this sudden secrecy requirement
from Barnardos London is more concerned with individual and corporate
backside covering than with duty of care or the confidentiality of any
living person. It would certainly be a first for Barnardos London in my
experience if the latter were their main concern, it has certainly not
been in the past in my experience.
Robin Harritt
http://harritt.net

It must be all of those solicitors tryng to sue everyone in sight, and take
over the right and proper role of barristers in the Court room. - too much
litigation by the short gown set. - or is that just something that I saw on
Rumpole?
Doug Thomas

Umm...only in the courts of summary jurisdictions at the moment as far
I'm aware Doug, though many solicitors would like the right to represent
clients in the higher courts.


If I meet Barnardos in court, which still seems quite likely at the
moment, it will be the High Court and represented by a team with a
barrister doing the talking, maybe even a QC. It's already cost me
several thousand to say hello to one of those.


By the way how's the Canadian child migrants' case against Barnardos
going. Last I heard it was being converted from a class action to a
group of individual litigants, all of whom are very old. I do hope it
doesn't simply fizzle out. Barnardo's (the organisation that can't make
up its mind how to spell its own name) needs a reminder that not
everything that it has done since its founders death a hundred years ago
has been good. Barnardos is about to launch a fund raising campaign
called "Keeping the Vision Alive" including a book of that title. Seems
to me it lost sight of that vision some time ago, not that was ever a
perfect vision even in Tom Banardo's day.


Robin Harritt

[Jurgen Klingemann]

Hi, you would be best to get some legal advise on the request for you to
sign a secrecy agreement. The first concultation should be free, if not
citizens advice should be able to help.

You are entitaled in law to access this information under the freedom of
information act. I know as I'm adopted and it was an overseas adoption.

James A

Post by doug thomas

Post by Robin Harritt
Secrecy agreements
Have those of you who have been given access to adoption records been
asked to sign a secrecy agreement either for initial or further access?
I am being asked to sign such an agreement by Barnardo's for information
about aspects of my care from over 50 years ago. The other people
involved have been deceased for 36 years and 16 years.
I am inclined to think the main reason for this sudden secrecy
requirement from Barnardos London is more concerned with individual and
corporate backside covering than with duty of care or the confidentiality
of any living person. It would certainly be a first for Barnardos London
in my experience if the latter were their main concern, it has certainly
not been in the past in my experience.
Robin Harritt
http://harritt.net

It must be all of those solicitors tryng to sue everyone in sight, and
take over the right and proper role of barristers in the Court room. - too
much litigation by the short gown set. - or is that just something that I
saw on Rumpole?
Doug Thomas

[Robin Harritt]

Post by Jurgen Klingemann
Hi, you would be best to get some legal advise on the request for you to
sign a secrecy agreement. The first concultation should be free, if not
citizens advice should be able to help.
You are entitaled in law to access this information under the freedom of
information act. I know as I'm adopted and it was an overseas adoption.
James A

Hi James,


Generaly that's good advice. If you read the links in some of my other
posts to this newsgroup (and repeated bellow) you will see that I have
advice from some of the formost legal brains in the country. However,
here I'm trying to find out whether secrecy agreements are becoming a
trend for people asking to see their adoption files. I am a voluntary
worker for a post adoption support charity. I've not head of such a
requirement elsewhere than at Barnardos. I am hearing from people who
have been required by Barnardo's to sign various agreements before being
given legible copies of their care records for use as evidence in abuse
cases. That is a practice that I do hope the courts are aware of and
will eventualy stamp out.


Robin Harritt

http://info.harritt.net/barnardos

http://info.harritt.net/search

http://harritt.net

[Jurgen Klingemann]

Hi Robin,

All I had to do was contact social services and apply to the courts for
access. As far as I know I've not heard of signing such an agreement.
However I vaguely remember that some adoption agencies where investigated
about the way they conducted some adoptions. It seems that some adoptions my
be questionable, if I remember correctly and could be the reason for the
secrecy agreement encase the searcher found that the adoption maybe
questionable.

James A

Post by Robin Harritt

Post by Jurgen Klingemann
Hi, you would be best to get some legal advise on the request for you to
sign a secrecy agreement. The first concultation should be free, if not
citizens advice should be able to help.
You are entitaled in law to access this information under the freedom of
information act. I know as I'm adopted and it was an overseas adoption.
James A

Hi James,
Generaly that's good advice. If you read the links in some of my other
posts to this newsgroup (and repeated bellow) you will see that I have
advice from some of the formost legal brains in the country. However, here
I'm trying to find out whether secrecy agreements are becoming a trend for
people asking to see their adoption files. I am a voluntary worker for a
post adoption support charity. I've not head of such a requirement
elsewhere than at Barnardos. I am hearing from people who have been
required by Barnardo's to sign various agreements before being given
legible copies of their care records for use as evidence in abuse cases.
That is a practice that I do hope the courts are aware of and will
eventualy stamp out.
Robin Harritt
http://info.harritt.net/barnardos
http://info.harritt.net/search
http://harritt.net

[Robin Harritt]

Post by Jurgen Klingemann
Hi Robin,
All I had to do was contact social services and apply to the courts for
access. As far as I know I've not heard of signing such an agreement.
However I vaguely remember that some adoption agencies where investigated
about the way they conducted some adoptions. It seems that some adoptions my
be questionable, if I remember correctly and could be the reason for the
secrecy agreement encase the searcher found that the adoption maybe
questionable.
James A

Yes, I'm sure that's why Barnardos would like a secrecy agreement, it's
what we here in England call "arse covering". Barnardo's (the
organisation that can't make up its mind how to spell its own name) has
now after much presure shown me parts of my file, I'm trying to get the
same access as the Gunn-Rosso v Nugent & the Department of Health
judgement allowed Linda Gunn-Rosso to have and the same detailed
explanation for the exclusion of any part of the file.


Robin

http://info.harritt.net/barnardos

http://info.harritt.net/search

http://harritt.net

[Robin Harritt]

Post by Jurgen Klingemann
Hi Robin,
All I had to do was contact social services and apply to the courts for
access. As far as I know I've not heard of signing such an agreement.

James

As far as access to the Court's records of my adoption is concerned,
then I did exactly the same, I think it cost me about £40 for a hearing.
The courts are not obliged to give you those records, it is up to the
presiding Judge. Court adoption records are covered by different
legislation from the records held by the adoption agency and social
services, however the documents actually held by social services and the
adoption agency that were presented to the court at the time of the
adoption, are supposed to be treated as 'court records' and strictly
speaking the agency or social services can only give access to those
records with the leave of the court that presided over the adoption, or
a higher court.

Barnardo's wants to withhold a parts of my file as it contends that my
(unofficial) foster parents the Threadgolds made an application to adopt
me. However despite at least half a dozen requests Barnardos have been
unable to tell me to which court the application was made, the date the
hearing was set and the case number. If I had those details I could seek
leave of the court for access. The only evidence for any intent to adopt
on the Threadgolds part is the letter in http://info.harritt.net/search
Barnardo's even want to withhold documents from the date of that letter
as part of an adoption application.

There is more to it than I can reveal here, but I suspect Barnardo's
would look very bad if it the full story were revealed.

Robin Harritt

http://info.harritt.net/barnardos

http://info.harritt.net/search

http://harritt.net

[Robin Harritt]

Post by Jurgen Klingemann
Hi, you would be best to get some legal advise on the request for you
to sign a secrecy agreement. The first concultation should be free,
if not citizens advice should be able to help.
You are entitaled in law to access this information under the freedom
of information act. I know as I'm adopted and it was an overseas
adoption.
James A

James,


By the way, you were very lucky if you or your legal advise was able to
persuade an adoption agency in the jurisdiction of England & Wales that
you were '… entitaled in law to access this information under the
freedom of information act …'

The Freedom of Information Act 2000 makes it clear that personal access
to personal files is to be dealt with under the Data Protection Acts
1984 and 1998

Adopted people and others mentioned in adoption records have been
specifically excluded from having any rights to access to adoption
records under the Data Protection Acts by the following statutes:-

The Data Protection (Miscellaneous Subject Access Exemptions) Order 1987

http://www.legislation.hmso.gov.uk/si/si1987/Uksi_19871906_en_2.htm

and were further amended by

Statutory Instrument 2000 No. 1865

The Data Protection (Miscellaneous Subject Access Exemptions)
(Amendment) Order 2000

http://www.legislation.hmso.gov.uk/si/si2000/20001865.htm

And

Statutory Instrument 2000 No. 419

The Data Protection (Miscellaneous Subject Access Exemptions) Order 2000

http://www.legislation.hmso.gov.uk/si/si2000/20000419.htm

We have no right of access to our files, we have only the discretion
that the law grants to an agency under Regulation 15(2) (a) of the
Adoption Agencies Regulations 1983 to enable adult adoptees to have
direct access to their records as part of their function as adoption
agencies. That has been given some strength by the Gunn-Rosso judgement,
but adoption agencies can still refuse outright merely on the basis that
access would in their opinion be inappropriate. In which case if you
still want access you have the expense of taking them to court.


Robin Harritt

http://info.harritt.net/barnardos

http://info.harritt.net/search

http://harritt.net

[Jurgen Klingemann]

Hi again,
I stand corrected. Seeing you have a good knowledge of adoption procedures,
could you shed any light on why my nationality was never changed. I'm
advised that technically do not have any citizenship right now. I've tried
accessing Home Office Records but to no avail.

James

Post by Jurgen Klingemann
Hi, you would be best to get some legal advise on the request for you to
sign a secrecy agreement. The first concultation should be free, if not
citizens advice should be able to help.
You are entitaled in law to access this information under the freedom of
information act. I know as I'm adopted and it was an overseas adoption.
James A

James,


By the way, you were very lucky if you or your legal advise was able to
persuade an adoption agency in the jurisdiction of England & Wales that
you were '… entitaled in law to access this information under the
freedom of information act …'

The Freedom of Information Act 2000 makes it clear that personal access
to personal files is to be dealt with under the Data Protection Acts
1984 and 1998

Adopted people and others mentioned in adoption records have been
specifically excluded from having any rights to access to adoption
records under the Data Protection Acts by the following statutes:-

The Data Protection (Miscellaneous Subject Access Exemptions) Order 1987

http://www.legislation.hmso.gov.uk/si/si1987/Uksi_19871906_en_2.htm

and were further amended by

Statutory Instrument 2000 No. 1865

The Data Protection (Miscellaneous Subject Access Exemptions)
(Amendment) Order 2000

http://www.legislation.hmso.gov.uk/si/si2000/20001865.htm

And

Statutory Instrument 2000 No. 419

The Data Protection (Miscellaneous Subject Access Exemptions) Order 2000

http://www.legislation.hmso.gov.uk/si/si2000/20000419.htm

We have no right of access to our files, we have only the discretion
that the law grants to an agency under Regulation 15(2) (a) of the
Adoption Agencies Regulations 1983 to enable adult adoptees to have
direct access to their records as part of their function as adoption
agencies. That has been given some strength by the Gunn-Rosso judgement,
but adoption agencies can still refuse outright merely on the basis that
access would in their opinion be inappropriate. In which case if you
still want access you have the expense of taking them to court.


Robin Harritt

http://info.harritt.net/barnardos

http://info.harritt.net/search

http://harritt.net

[Robin Harritt]

Post by Jurgen Klingemann
Hi again,
I stand corrected. Seeing you have a good knowledge of adoption procedures,
could you shed any light on why my nationality was never changed. I'm
advised that technically do not have any citizenship right now. I've tried
accessing Home Office Records but to no avail.
James

Hi James

What was the date (year) of your birth and adoption, where were you
born, what were your birth parents' nationality(ies) where were you
adopted what is the nationality(ies) of your adoptive parents?

I am not sure that I can answer you question (might be able to give some
pointers), but this is the information that anyone would probably need
in order to give you an answer.


Robin Harritt

http://info.harritt.net/barnardos

http://info.harritt.net/search

http://harritt.net

[Jurgen Klingemann]

Hi Robin,
Born 13/02/1953
Adopted July 1957
Celle W Germany
Birth Parents both German
Adoptive Mother British
Adoptive Father Ireland, Republic of

Nice mix! I believe I can hold a British, Irish or German passport, but if I
go about it correctly I can hold all three so I'm told.

James

Post by Robin Harritt

Post by Jurgen Klingemann
Hi again,
I stand corrected. Seeing you have a good knowledge of adoption
procedures, could you shed any light on why my nationality was never
changed. I'm advised that technically do not have any citizenship right
now. I've tried accessing Home Office Records but to no avail.
James

Hi James
What was the date (year) of your birth and adoption, where were you born,
what were your birth parents' nationality(ies) where were you adopted what
is the nationality(ies) of your adoptive parents?
I am not sure that I can answer you question (might be able to give some
pointers), but this is the information that anyone would probably need in
order to give you an answer.
Robin Harritt
http://info.harritt.net/barnardos
http://info.harritt.net/search
http://harritt.net

[Robin Harritt]

Post by Jurgen Klingemann
Hi Robin,
Born 13/02/1953
Adopted July 1957
Celle W Germany
Birth Parents both German
Adoptive Mother British
Adoptive Father Ireland, Republic of
Nice mix! I believe I can hold a British, Irish or German passport, but if I
go about it correctly I can hold all three so I'm told.
James

Hi James


You do not say where you were born, but my understanding from another
enquirer here, is that anyone born of German parents has a right to
German citizenship even if they were adopted outside Germany by non
German adoptive parents, you just need all of the documents to prove it
to the German authorities, she was having difficulty with that. Anyone
adopted by British adoptive parents in an adoption that is recognised by
British law is a British citizen, again it just needs the documents to
prove the adoption and parents' right to British citizenship. And I
guess if your adoptive father's a citizen of the Republic of Ireland
then you inherit that right from him as well.


My brother's children are both German born and German citizens, I wonder
what their rights are to a British passport as their father is English.
He had great problems getting married in Germany as the authorities
would not accept his adoption certificate as a birth certificate. He had
prolems with the moronicaly stupid law requiring people adopted before
12 Nov 1975 in England & Wales to have councelling to get their own
birth certificate (even though he was 17 when he was adopted) This law
was reintroduced in the latest Adoption & Children Act 2002 despite the
fact that it was based on entirely false evidence given to a government
committee in the 1970s. It seems to me that often the rule where
adoption is concerned is ' let's make it up as we go along so that we
protect the "edifice of adoption" (as one judge called it)'. Sorry
starting to rant now, better call it a day.



Robin Harritt

http://info.harritt.net/barnardos

http://info.harritt.net/search

http://harritt.net

[Jurgen Klingemann]

Hi Robin,

I was born in Celle. As to British passport sorry cant have one due to law
change in 1985 by the Iron Lady Thatcher 'b****'. I know as I've been
refused passport in 1995 with little or no explanation. It was only in 2003
that I found out way. I've also checked my legitimacy of UK residence this
is ok as I have lived over hear for more than eight years and have been
married to a UK citizen for more than three years other wise I'd be facing
De-potation Order.

James

Post by Robin Harritt

Post by Jurgen Klingemann
Hi Robin,
Born 13/02/1953
Adopted July 1957
Celle W Germany
Birth Parents both German
Adoptive Mother British
Adoptive Father Ireland, Republic of
Nice mix! I believe I can hold a British, Irish or German passport, but if
I go about it correctly I can hold all three so I'm told.
James

Hi James
You do not say where you were born, but my understanding from another
enquirer here, is that anyone born of German parents has a right to German
citizenship even if they were adopted outside Germany by non German
adoptive parents, you just need all of the documents to prove it to the
German authorities, she was having difficulty with that. Anyone adopted
by British adoptive parents in an adoption that is recognised by British
law is a British citizen, again it just needs the documents to prove the
adoption and parents' right to British citizenship. And I guess if your
adoptive father's a citizen of the Republic of Ireland then you
inherit that right from him as well.
My brother's children are both German born and German citizens, I wonder
what their rights are to a British passport as their father is English. He
had great problems getting married in Germany as the authorities would not
accept his adoption certificate as a birth certificate. He had prolems
with the moronicaly stupid law requiring people adopted before 12 Nov 1975
in England & Wales to have councelling to get their own birth certificate
(even though he was 17 when he was adopted) This law was reintroduced in
the latest Adoption & Children Act 2002 despite the fact that it was based
on entirely false evidence given to a government committee in the 1970s.
It seems to me that often the rule where adoption is concerned is ' let's
make it up as we go along so that we protect the "edifice of adoption" (as
one judge called it)'. Sorry starting to rant now, better call it a day.
Robin Harritt
http://info.harritt.net/barnardos
http://info.harritt.net/search
http://harritt.net

[Robin Harritt]

Post by Jurgen Klingemann
Hi Robin,
I was born in Celle. As to British passport sorry cant have one due to law
change in 1985 by the Iron Lady Thatcher 'b****'. I know as I've been
refused passport in 1995 with little or no explanation. It was only in 2003
that I found out way. I've also checked my legitimacy of UK residence this
is ok as I have lived over hear for more than eight years and have been
married to a UK citizen for more than three years other wise I'd be facing
De-potation Order.
James

Is that because your adoption took place in Germany rather than UK and
your adoptive parents neglected to have you (re) adopted in the UK? I
believe if the adoption had been finalized here then you still would
have been a UK citizen. I think if I were in your position I would
appeal. It seems unfair that you should not be allowed citizenship when
your adoptive mother was British, or is it because your adoptive father
is Irish? I know the right of Irish citizens to British citizenship
changed with the 1985 Nationality Act, are you being treated the same as
if you were the birth son of an Irish man married to an English mother?

At least we don't have the dreadful situation of the USA where people
who were adopted abroad at birth by Americans can be deported in
adulthood to countries where they have no knowledge of the language or
culture, just because they have committed some minor crime and are not
US citizens.

Robin

[Jurgen Klingemann]

Hi Robin,

Thanks for the last bit of info. It could be that I'm being treated as my
adoptive fathers biological son.

James

Post by Robin Harritt

Post by Jurgen Klingemann
Hi Robin,
I was born in Celle. As to British passport sorry cant have one due to law
change in 1985 by the Iron Lady Thatcher 'b****'. I know as I've been
refused passport in 1995 with little or no explanation. It was only in
2003 that I found out way. I've also checked my legitimacy of UK residence
this is ok as I have lived over hear for more than eight years and have
been married to a UK citizen for more than three years other wise I'd be
facing De-potation Order.
James

Is that because your adoption took place in Germany rather than UK and
your adoptive parents neglected to have you (re) adopted in the UK? I
believe if the adoption had been finalized here then you still would have
been a UK citizen. I think if I were in your position I would appeal. It
seems unfair that you should not be allowed citizenship when your adoptive
mother was British, or is it because your adoptive father is Irish? I know
the right of Irish citizens to British citizenship changed with the 1985
Nationality Act, are you being treated the same as if you were the birth
son of an Irish man married to an English mother?
At least we don't have the dreadful situation of the USA where people who
were adopted abroad at birth by Americans can be deported in adulthood to
countries where they have no knowledge of the language or culture, just
because they have committed some minor crime and are not US citizens.
Robin

[Robin Harritt]

Post by Jurgen Klingemann
Hi Robin,
Thanks for the last bit of info. It could be that I'm being treated as my
adoptive fathers biological son.
James

It may be that British nationality law sees you in the same way as if
you were his birth son even though they know you are adopted and there
is nothing that you can do about that. But then you are Irish and
hopefully the Irish government accept that. Do Irish people still have
an automatic right of residence in the UK or did that end in 1985 as
well? I suppose if you have already earned a permanent right of
residence here it doesn't matter so much, but for others it may. Also
presumably it also affects the rights of any children you may have.

Robin

[Jurgen Klingemann]

Hi Robin,

I know that if I take up German citizenship this will help my child to be
able to work or study in Germany with little or paper work i.e. visa / work
permit. Nice advantage to have. If I can included my child on my passport
they would also benefit as they will have extra legal rights namely German
laws to protect them when in foreign countries.

James


James

Post by Jurgen Klingemann
Hi Robin,
Thanks for the last bit of info. It could be that I'm being treated as my
adoptive fathers biological son.
James

It may be that British nationality law sees you in the same way as if you
were his birth son even though they know you are adopted and there is
nothing that you can do about that. But then you are Irish and hopefully
the Irish government accept that. Do Irish people still have an automatic
right of residence in the UK or did that end in 1985 as well? I suppose if
you have already earned a permanent right of residence here it doesn't
matter so much, but for others it may. Also presumably it also affects the
rights of any children you may have.
Robin

[JAJ]

Post by Jurgen Klingemann
Hi Robin,
I was born in Celle. As to British passport sorry cant have one due to law
change in 1985 by the Iron Lady Thatcher 'b****'. I know as I've been
refused passport in 1995 with little or no explanation.

Ask on misc.immigration.misc about nationality issues.

There was no change to British law in 1985. Generally speaking,
British mothers could not pass on British citizenship to overseas born
children until 1983. The law was changed by the Thatcher government to
allow this, but not retrospectively. In 2003 a further law change
allows those who were born overseas to British mothers between 1961 and
1982 to register as British citizens now.

On top of that, adoption overseas by British parents generally did not
confer British citizenship unless the child was registered as British.

Post by Jurgen Klingemann
It was only in 2003
that I found out way. I've also checked my legitimacy of UK residence this
is ok as I have lived over hear for more than eight years and have been
married to a UK citizen for more than three years other wise I'd be facing
De-potation Order.

If you were adopted outside the UK (and never re-adopted in the UK)
then it's fairly clear you're not
British unless you were registered as a child. However if you have
indefinite leave to remain in Britain (as you should have if married to
a British citizen) then it should be straightforward for you to
naturalise as a British citizen if you wish.
http://www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk has a lot of information.

Naturalisation is a straightforward process but you need to make sure
your residence status is in order first in order to avoid complications
in dealing with the Home Office. See a Citizens Advice Bureau or a
competent immigration lawyer.

If you have German citizenship you risk losing this if you become
naturalised British, so check with the German authorities if this is
important. It may not be.

Post by Jurgen Klingemann

Post by Jurgen Klingemann
Born 13/02/1953
Adopted July 1957
Celle W Germany
Birth Parents both German
Adoptive Mother British
Adoptive Father Ireland, Republic of
Nice mix! I believe I can hold a British, Irish or German passport, but if
I go about it correctly I can hold all three so I'm told.
James

What passport have you used up to now?

British - as above, unless you were adopted in the UK (and possibly
even if you were) then you may need to naturalise.

Irish - if you were adopted under Irish law, then you should have
acquired Irish citizenship at the time. If you were adopted under
another country's law then you may have acquired Irish citizenship in
1991 because of the interaction of the Adoption Act 1991 and the Irish
Nationality and Citizenship Act 1956. Was your adoptive father Irish
born?
http://www.bailii.org/ie/legis/num_act/aa1991107/index.html
http://www.bailii.org/ie/legis/num_act/inaca1956351/index.html

German - you need to check if being adopted by foreign parents caused
you to lose German citizenship under German law. It may or may not
have done. If you have German citizenship and want to keep it on
becoming naturalised British, you
need to get permission from the German government.

[Jurgen Klingemann]

Hi, At the moment I don't have any passport.
I can have a German passport but have to go to London to obtain it, as I
require to take an oath of allegiance.
I am told by the Embassy that technically I a displaced person.

James

Post by Jurgen Klingemann

Post by Jurgen Klingemann
Hi Robin,
I was born in Celle. As to British passport sorry cant have one due

to law

Post by Jurgen Klingemann
change in 1985 by the Iron Lady Thatcher 'b****'. I know as I've been
refused passport in 1995 with little or no explanation.

Ask on misc.immigration.misc about nationality issues.
There was no change to British law in 1985. Generally speaking,
British mothers could not pass on British citizenship to overseas born
children until 1983. The law was changed by the Thatcher government to
allow this, but not retrospectively. In 2003 a further law change
allows those who were born overseas to British mothers between 1961 and
1982 to register as British citizens now.
On top of that, adoption overseas by British parents generally did not
confer British citizenship unless the child was registered as British.

Post by Jurgen Klingemann
It was only in 2003
that I found out way. I've also checked my legitimacy of UK residence

this

Post by Jurgen Klingemann
is ok as I have lived over hear for more than eight years and have

been

Post by Jurgen Klingemann
married to a UK citizen for more than three years other wise I'd be

facing

Post by Jurgen Klingemann
De-potation Order.

If you were adopted outside the UK (and never re-adopted in the UK)
then it's fairly clear you're not
British unless you were registered as a child. However if you have
indefinite leave to remain in Britain (as you should have if married to
a British citizen) then it should be straightforward for you to
naturalise as a British citizen if you wish.
http://www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk has a lot of information.
Naturalisation is a straightforward process but you need to make sure
your residence status is in order first in order to avoid complications
in dealing with the Home Office. See a Citizens Advice Bureau or a
competent immigration lawyer.
If you have German citizenship you risk losing this if you become
naturalised British, so check with the German authorities if this is
important. It may not be.

Post by Jurgen Klingemann

Post by Jurgen Klingemann
Born 13/02/1953
Adopted July 1957
Celle W Germany
Birth Parents both German
Adoptive Mother British
Adoptive Father Ireland, Republic of
Nice mix! I believe I can hold a British, Irish or German passport,

but if

Post by Jurgen Klingemann

Post by Jurgen Klingemann
I go about it correctly I can hold all three so I'm told.
James

What passport have you used up to now?
British - as above, unless you were adopted in the UK (and possibly
even if you were) then you may need to naturalise.
Irish - if you were adopted under Irish law, then you should have
acquired Irish citizenship at the time. If you were adopted under
another country's law then you may have acquired Irish citizenship in
1991 because of the interaction of the Adoption Act 1991 and the Irish
Nationality and Citizenship Act 1956. Was your adoptive father Irish
born?
http://www.bailii.org/ie/legis/num_act/aa1991107/index.html
http://www.bailii.org/ie/legis/num_act/inaca1956351/index.html
German - you need to check if being adopted by foreign parents caused
you to lose German citizenship under German law. It may or may not
have done. If you have German citizenship and want to keep it on
becoming naturalised British, you
need to get permission from the German government.

[JAJ]

Post by Jurgen Klingemann
Hi, At the moment I don't have any passport.
I can have a German passport but have to go to London to obtain it, as I
require to take an oath of allegiance.
I am told by the Embassy that technically I a displaced person.
James

If it's just a matter of going to the embassy to get a German passport then
that's what you should do if it's what you want.

If you'd prefer a British or Irish passport then you've now been given
information on what you need to do in that respect.

[Tam]

Given that the OP has a German name and surname, it is quite likely that he
was adopted by way of a (civil-law) "simple" adoption rather than a
"plenary" (or full) adoption, the latter being the only kind known in Common
Law countries.

A simple adoption does not break the legal tie between a child and his or
her birth parent(s) (if any: in some civil law countries a legal tie with a
birth parent only existed (prior to ECHR intervention in the Markx case) if
(1) the parents were married to each other or (2) the mother and/or father
legally "recognized" the child, establishing paternity and/or maternity.
Nullus filius, and all that.)

If the child was adopted by British military in Germany, a UK-cognisable
adoption is likely to have been facilitated. One would like to know what
documents were used to bring the child to Britain in the first place.

Not so much on point as interesting:

On the irrevocability of UK adoptions: In re B, [1995] Fam. 239 (C.A.),
(child of Irish mother and Arab (Kuwaiti? Diplomat) father mistakenly given
to Jewish couple to adopt; adoption does not exist in Islam, although that
was not an issue in the case)
http://tinyurl.com/6m6ab

In re H, [1982] Fam. 121 (adoption to contrive attribution of British
nationality)

Secretary of State for Social Services v. S, [1983] 3 All ER 173, [1983] 1
WLR 1110, [1984] FLR 77 (Ct. App., Civ.Div., 6 May 1983 (illegitimate child
adopted by grandmother. Upon death of grandmother, birth mother becomes
child's foster parent and claims benefit. Held: mother being having no legal
relation to child, she was entitled to foster parent benefit.)

Adoption of British child by American diplomat posted in London:
Re G., [1962] 2 All E.R. 173, [1962] 2 Q.B. 141, [1962] 2 W.L.R. 1010, 126
J.P. 340, 106 Sol.J. 282, 61 L.G.R. 18 (C.A.)



On 28/3/05 7:21 pm, in article

Post by JAJ
On top of that, adoption overseas by British parents generally did not
confer British citizenship unless the child was registered as British.

Post by Jurgen Klingemann
It was only in 2003
that I found out way. I've also checked my legitimacy of UK residence

this

Post by Jurgen Klingemann
is ok as I have lived over hear for more than eight years and have

been

Post by Jurgen Klingemann
married to a UK citizen for more than three years other wise I'd be

facing

Post by Jurgen Klingemann
De-potation Order.

If you were adopted outside the UK (and never re-adopted in the UK)
then it's fairly clear you're not
British unless you were registered as a child. However if you have
indefinite leave to remain in Britain (as you should have if married to
a British citizen) then it should be straightforward for you to
naturalise as a British citizen if you wish.
http://www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk has a lot of information.
Naturalisation is a straightforward process but you need to make sure
your residence status is in order first in order to avoid complications
in dealing with the Home Office. See a Citizens Advice Bureau or a
competent immigration lawyer.
If you have German citizenship you risk losing this if you become
naturalised British, so check with the German authorities if this is
important. It may not be.

Post by Jurgen Klingemann

Post by Jurgen Klingemann
Born 13/02/1953
Adopted July 1957
Celle W Germany
Birth Parents both German
Adoptive Mother British
Adoptive Father Ireland, Republic of
Nice mix! I believe I can hold a British, Irish or German passport,

but if

Post by Jurgen Klingemann

Post by Jurgen Klingemann
I go about it correctly I can hold all three so I'm told.
James